You know, I’ve lost 30 lbs. since May and yet I’m still 6 lbs. more than my Manhattan average. I’m really looking forward to taking those 6 lbs. off (and then some–I want to lose another 22 lbs. by my 30th birthday in February). Still, I can’t help but practice a little bit of self-loathing. How do I let myself do this? If I hadn’t regained the weight in the first place, and just lost the 30 lbs., I’d be a tiny little woman by now.
What’s worse? Complaining all the time about needing to lose weight and not doing it, or doing it again and again?
***********************************************************************
Speaking of complaining, lately I’ve been forced to think a lot about mine, and other people’s.
Here’s a little insight: I live in my own head. I am highly introspective. Often, even if I have something worked out one way or another–or even have already acted–I may still complain about a situation for a while. It’s venting. I don’t always want advice, or need it. I’ll ask for it if I am confused. Likewise, I generally won’t offer advice to another person unless they specifically request it. This is why, while you’re baring your soul in conversation with me, you may find I’m giving you blank stares and noncommital answers, or saying things like, “Well, a lot of times people do X.” Unless you have explicitly said, “I don’t know what to do, help me,” I’m only half listening, because I assume you work the way I do–you just need to talk things out. If I’m wrong, sorry. You know when you do ask, I’m happy to bust out the opinions.
Conversely, there are several people I love and adore who have very large personalities, and who assume that any mention of a subject means you want them to tell you what to do about it. I don’t mind someone expressing their opinion. I have a problem when that expression becomes the “Do what I say. No, really, do what I say. I don’t understand why you aren’t doing what I said, which is The Right Thing, so I don’t want to hear it” phenomenon.
Eh, let me rephrase. As I mentioned above, I listen, often half-interestedly, in a fairly detached manner, to other people complain. I figure, they’re grown ups. They’ll work it out. Or, under rare circumstances–say, I think someone is in actual, physical danger, or is clearly beating themselves up emotionally over something that I think isn’t that serious–I will express my concern, offer support, and then move on. So I feel almost…betrayed…when people I have listened to complain about problems (that may have happened years ago, or are easily remedied, or to which they admittedly already know the answer) then tell me they don’t want to hear mine unless I’m doing what they recommend.
Do they not see the parallel or do they just not care? Every time I end up in this situation, I wonder. And then I wonder if I’m secretly a cyborg, and everyone else in the world truly feels others’ malaise so very deeply that they just can’t deal with it all. (And then I think I would have made a pretty good shrink, because I can. No, really. When’s the last time I told you to just shut up already about your problems, because if you’re not gonna do what I tell you, I can’t take it? Show of hands? Right. I’m the bitch sitting there listening, presenting alternative points of view, and waiting for you to talk yourself down from that ledge–and I’m probably googling Ryan Reynold’s abs at the same time. My bad.)
Now, I can only be responsible for myself, I know. Often, I’m tempted to be petty the next time they complain about something and reflect their approach back at them, but I don’t. I don’t think that’s what friendship should be, and often, I really am not that invested in the outcome, so I don’t. I don’t think they’re trying to be petty when they respond as they do to me. I’m also not interested in adding stress to an already unhappy situation. But man, some days…it’s really fucking hard not to be Queen Bitch and go, “Remember when? Yeah, I’ll be at the coffee shop. Call someone else.”
I’ve obviously had these conversations before. Usually the other person, when confronted with my brand of logic, pauses as though the possibility of this never occurred to them (and maybe it hasn’t; maybe they assume I operate the way they do and have been telling them everything I thought about things all the time :-/ ), and then says, “Well, you are welcome to do that, and I’d have to respect it.” (Nevermind that this conversation usually STARTS with me expressing my naked opinions, for once.) Or they give me a “Well, but, my problems are different!” But I wonder. The pauses, the “Well, buts…” seem fairly telling to me. They tell me that, were I more to take that approach, we’d be at loggerheads all the time. I’m not saying “telling it like it is” (which is, of course, usually highly personally biased) would break anybody, but how many people remain friends with people they are arguing with All. The. Fucking. Time? If neither person is willing to listen to what the other has to say, for whatever reason, where’s the friendship in that friendship?
Thoughts? Yes, I am specifically asking for your opinions. Wait! Let me put on my Kevlar…. Okaygo!
*crickets*
Sigh.
I am amending this to add that obviously I really like these people. It’s why I consider them friends. I’m not going to bother with someone if I don’t feel that whatever qualities they have far outweigh any disagreements we experience, and I imagine they feel the same. They are good people who, as I do, feel very strongly about things. That’s not a fault. And I’m not trying to draw anyone into taking potshots at them. Over the years, I’ve been in this position many times, and have come to the conclusion that it all boils down to radically different perceptions or ways of being in the world. I try to adjust, and to iterate as clearly as possible where I’m coming from, and usually I give up, for the sake of keeping the peace.
But in my quiet moments, yeah, sometimes I want to be the cranky one, the feeler. Shit. 
Also…OMFG Shia is in Chicago!
Opinions, shmopinions—why haven’t you blogged about Shia LaBeouf getting arrested at the Walgreens at Michigan and Chicago Avenues because he refused to leave the store at 2 in the morning?
I broke off a friendship this past summer that was just - ugh. Granted, she wasn’t one to lay out her problems (she didn’t seem to have many as she tried her damndest as to appear perfect all the time) but any time I said anything, all I got was unsolicited advice and opinions. And by God, I better do exactly as she said or there was hell to pay.
The clincher came one day that I went to Blimpie for a sandwich. I contemplated lying what kind of sandwich I ordered because I knew she was a veg and I’d have to hear her mouth.
5-6 emails later, her lambasting me for my sandwich choice and me replying the same: Well I like it… I knew. Time to cut the ties.
Does this have anything to do with what you are asking? I was only half-reading as I was also listening to Kim K’s voicemail to Ray J on tmz.com. Good stuff.
Loaf ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwe!
Orange: duly noted. See above! I wish to capture him and let him grow to manhood (heh) in my clutches. Also, I will do all the Walgreen’s shopping. I’ll set up an in-home drug store if need be.
Do you know why he was in town? And where I can stalk him?
Mary: Thanks lady, loaf ewe twoooo!
It is related in that I think there are different ways of seeing the issue, and you seem to have been on the receiving end of what I feel. I don’t feel like it’s a relationship-ender; part of the point of having friends is having some stimuli outside yourself to engage with, and sometimes that means discomfort, I know. Nothing is all teddy bears and butterflies. Well, except actual teddy bears and butterflies.
Wait, what?
Um…right, I’m just asking for insight, I suppose. On which side of the fence do you live? What are your boundaries? Am I wearing my asshole hat on this one? Because even in the heat of such arguments, I’m usually holding my tongue and not going for the easy shot because I figure, if I can honestly think of what I’m about to say, however valid, as being said for the sake of “winning” an argument, it’s not coming from a place I’m happy with. Gah. I dunno. I’m gonna go think about it some more.
I was wondering why you did not make an official comment about Shia at the Walgreens. You were the first person I thought of. He’s intown to that Steven Spielberg movie that’s not Indy 4.
As a fellow introspective person, word, word, word to your entire post. I like to talk things out. I don’t necessarily need an answer or advice, I just need to get things off my chest.
Interesting topic. I’d tell you how I’d roll with it all but you didn’t ask me to. =)
Dude, what’s up with Mary and her vegan ex-friend? I do not make friends with vegetarians. I am 100% against vegetarianism and the neurotic people who flock to it. They’re always walking the razors edge between super drama and hysteria. That and Hitler was vegetarian… I am sooo getting bacon & blue cheese burger for lunch today; probably with chicken fingers to round out the barn yard on my plate.
A bacon and blue cheese burger sounds outstanding.
Rob: Butbutbut…I did! I did ask! That’s what that meant, the whole, “I am specifically asking for your opinions.” sentence towards the end there!
I’m having a salad and an apple for lunch. Look at me, virtue virtue virtue.
Eh, I’ve been a vegetarian. It was good for me at the time, because it taught me a sort of restraint I hadn’t practiced before. It was the beginning of my serious weight loss efforts seven years ago, and what I’m really struggling with now is maintaining that loss while being an omnivore. I don’t have problems with vegetarians. I have problems (much in the vein of my entire post) with vegetarians who try to foist their dietary habits on me.
If you want to vent…just say it up front–”I want to vent, don’t really need advice, I just gotta get this shit out of my system or I’ll explode/implode”. A majority of the people whom you discuss your issues with WILL offer up advice–that’s just how people are. So, when you air your dirty laundry with them they’re going to try to clean it for you.
If you’re clear upfront with most people about what you want and need from them, they’ll do their best to come through for you….if you aren’t, then you putting the responsibility of what you want, but haven’t iterated, on them.
Let me put this in terms we can all relate to….SEX! We’re strong men and women, so if someone has done something we really don’t like during our romantic interludes, we’re going to let them know before they do it again. It might momentarily be uncomfortable, but in the end, both parties are going to be better off for it.
I think the same thing goes with communication…if it’s something you don’t like, you let them know. If it’s something you won’t tolerate, you let them know, if you just want it to be tweaked a little, you let them know….before it becomes a habit of communication between you and them.
Hmmm, and none of that probably made any sense outside of my own head!
Hey I need to lose about 30lbs too. Let’s do this together. You have my email! LOL
So…
I learned a long time ago that you give friends advice and let it go. I always listen. Give some advice here and there depending on the situation. If they are truly friends they will be able to handle your comments. They will also know when not to say anything because it’s just the best thing to do. Sometimes you just gotta let them do what they want to do.
Ok, not sure if that related to your post but you’ll let me know if it didn’t, because you know, we’re friends. Hehehehe.
Have a great weekend!
PS…as I mentioned earlier today, you look GREAT! And I’m sure that six will melt away quickly as long as we don’t start drinking at 3 p.m. again on any upcoming Saturday!
Well, since you did ask me specifically, I think you have really internalized this whole debate and the concepts to it just a bit too much, or you’ve gone to such a length to paint the scenarious in such broad strokes as not to single any indivual(s) out that it is just a jumble of circular arguments culminating in an “I have argued myself right back to where I started from with this person/scenario/concept/internal debate topic”. I say that with some confidence as I am guilty of the same behaviours with regards to internalized thinkings.
Some people just don’t learn from their mistakes and they are dooomed to repeat them. Some people have been raised to or have learned to seek out those situations that bring them to the situation you are frequently finding frustrating because they like the drama and they like to be extroverted about it or hate speak about the situation they’ve entered into again.
Realistically, in my vegetarians example above, I find vegetarians to be loathesome thus I avoid them. I avoid people I find “needy” or “clingy”. Churchie types too and I go to Church regularly. I am doing better in my personal life to avoid people or situtions that enflame my personal flaws with excessive partying which again points to my proposing it’s better to be choosie about whom you interact with or choose as friends and or conduct yourself.
And more over the most valuable thing I do now at 36 is I just tell people flat out what I am thinking or my perspective and be done with it (if they ask). I will listen carefully and give my opinion/advice and be done with it. I already know people are going to do what they want to anyway. Also they like to give the answer they wish to depsite the pointed ness of a direct question. So why bother? I vary from this with regard to two individuals and family whom I offer to. Admittedly one individual asks my advice as she feels it is the most “safe” and “conservative” advice and then does the oposite but uses my advice as a base for jumping off. I have since stopped advising this person because it is a waste of my time to put so much effort into the answer or advice knowing she is going to disregard it anyway and she knows it.
Also, I have ceased to enter into discussions which I have come to own/learned/been made to feel/needed to accept I will “never be able to understand” and personally feel I am not a party to or responsible for; such as race relationships as an example or feminism. Som epeople just love to pick up this drum and go on and on beating it like “this is because you’re a man that this is like this thump thump thump” when my having a penis really has nothing to do with that persons experience/habits/choices and so on. But of course, like anything, if you go looking for something you can find it be it by some degrees of seperation, so they just keep beating that drum…
So yeah, I don’t go out much anymore. I invite people I like/repect/enjoy/find or have found friendship in to my home for pig roast and go out on occasion if invited to do so and am just happy to interact with friends as they have time to interact with me without holding it against them if I don’t see them and expect the same courtesy in return.
M-shell: I hear where you’re coming from. But the thing about advice is that it is just that: advice. Not an ultimatum, not rule of law, not the only possible outcome. I don’t try to clean anyone else’s “dirty laundry” when they air it, so I don’t automatically assume anyone is going to try to clean mine. See Keidra’s response: on her side of the fence (and mine), the assumption is that advice has to be specifically requested. On your side, it is assumed that it should be freely given when you feel it necessary.
There’s a difference between saying, “You know, a little club soda will get that stain out,” and “If you don’t put some club soda on that, shut up about that stain.” Especially if I’m in the middle of trying to explain that it’s not a stain, it’s a Bon Jovi iron-on, and I like it right where it is, thanks.
Why does it become my responsibility to tell someone I don’t want what I didn’t ask for? (I will do so if I have to, or clarify my situation until the cows come home if I think you misapprehend the situation.) I could say, conversely, “Why can’t you ask if I’m seeking advice before offering any?” You are as responsible for the message you deliver as I am for mine. (h/t L)
Make sense?
Oh, and thanks! I’m trying–going to the gym right now! Ish. Like, in 5. Meh.
Jo: You’re on! I haven’t seen you logged in lately. We’ll have to do a cross-country support network!
And I agree. I had a friend years ago who was on the receiving end of my advice. She would ask for it, and then do, like, the opposite. It made me nuts. It also helped me realize people don’t always want to be told what to do. Hell, even if they do want to be told what to do, you have to let them figure it out for themselves. If it goes right, they’ll take all the credit, and if it goes wrong, you’ll get all the blame!
Rob: First, thank you for sharing. Sharing a lot! It was so long, Akismet thought it was spam! Sorry.
Second: I am confused?
I can’t tell if you’re saying you don’t give advice unless it’s asked for, or if you give it whether or not it is asked for but don’t expect anyone to follow it. Or don’t believe in giving advice? Or you’re saying you think I should avoid advice-bearing people who make me uncomfortable?
I did paint it in broad strokes, because there are a few incidents with a few different people in mind. And I have thought a great deal about this. I’m introspective (see above). I think. It’s what I do. The unexamined life is not worth living, etc.
You are welcome. And I do apologise for allowing my subconscious to ramble on.
I’m saying choose your battles. Dealing with someone elses issues is taxing mentally, physically, emotionally and really all across the board, considering you care for friends and empathise with them. Adding the consideration of another individuals woes to your own is somethign to bear in mind. I’m saying I personally do not give unsolicited advice. When I do get asked to give advice I have come to expect it won’t be followed as people just do what they want anyway, good or bad. Also I own that I am the worst person to give myself advice, so I do seek it out or am open to it when it comes in, can’t guarantee I’ll follow it, I think my personal history bears that out.
The rest of that spam comment was me painting back to your broad strokes bysplashing buckets of paint as examples which really just made a big ole mess of the intent which is the pargraph above. I will do better next time. Besos.
Let’s do this! I just got a personal trainer for Sat’s & Sun’s. Yay fun! LOL When you say logged in do you mean to your blog?
As for doing what they want anyways, I always give a disclaimer! LOL Ask for advice I’ll give it but don’t be mad if you do your own thing and it doesn’t work out. If you do take it and it doesn’t work out well then we can figure out a solution. Otherwise, shut up. LMao!
““Why can’t you ask if I’m seeking advice before offering any?”
To me, that speaks, in and of itself, as someone putting their expectations onto another person….”you should do x,y, and z because I expect it of you–even if I haven’t told you I expect it of you.
If I’m the one who’s taking my issues, rants, vents, problems to someone else, then it’s up to me to make it clear what I expect from that person—if I don’t make it clear, then I can only hold myself responsible if I hear or get something I don’t like in return from that person.
For me, it comes simply comes down to self-responsibility.
Now, once what you want and expect is out there (i.e. we now know that more than likely you personally are just venting about a situation and don’t necessarily need advice–but you will ask for it if you do want it), hopefully friends will do their best to abide by that because you asked and it’s what’s most helpful to or for you in those circumstances.
Me, on the other hand…if I’m discussing something with you, then I’m more than likely looking for your input and/or advice, unless I specifically say I’m just venting or ranting or whatnot. And I need to preface it with that so people know–and I can’t say I’m good at that because I make the erroneous assumption that they KNOW that I want the feedback. So, I”m guilty of not taking responsibility for making that known (though I have to say, 9 times out of 10, I will get advice without asking because again, I think that’s just what a majority of people do when talking with friends).
Ah, tomato, tomahto. I tend to think that if I haven’t asked anything, the fact I don’t want anything additional is self-evident, but that, of course, assumes people function the way I do. Obviously, not everyone does. Goes both ways, though. I want to tell people to cut (what seems to me to be dysfunctional) shit out all the time, but I don’t assume that’s what they’re looking for, if indeed they are seeking anything at all. So if I’m unsure and I care, I ask, and if I don’t care, I just sort of tune them out and think about my bank account or something. I’m shady like that.
And again, I don’t mind friends expressing their take on things. I get cranky when they insist I do as they would based on their worldview–Or Else. I have a loving, protective (bossy) mother already, thanks. LOL.
***
I should also note that this whole conversation makes me wonder if I haven’t been doing my due diligence as a friend by not indicating more often or more strongly when I am concerned for my friends. Gah. Now I’m going to be a total asspain in the opposite direction, asking people if they want specific advice or an ear. Must go ponder more.
For the love… Sid, you might have to hire a shuttle to get some people back to the point.
1. Michelle, it may be your personal inclination (as is mine) and your very personal experience that the people you are surrounded by want to offer unsolicated advice and opinions to those talking about their particular issues. That’s fine. But as much as you would want the person talking to tell you that they are not looking for advice, it would behoove people like us to actually ask if someone would like to hear what we have to say on the matter. Basiscially, it would help a whole hell of a lot if both parties involved were thoughtful instead of putting the burden on one side. Example: “Yeah. I hear what you’re saying. I think I have a solution for that if you’re interested in hearing it,” would be a thoughtful thing to say if the person you are listening to didn’t say whether or not they were looking for advice.
2. From Sid’s post: “Do what I say. No, really, do what I say. I don’t understand why you aren’t doing what I said, which is The Right Thing, so I don’t want to hear it” phenomenon. :::sigh::: This is what I really have a problem with. Especially if the person giving advice wasn’t even listening or paying attention in the first place.
Advice is a suggestion. A recommendation. It is neither instruction, law, nor mandate. Therefore when someone gives advice, especially when it wasn’t freakin’ asked for, they are not allowed to then be angry that it wasn’t followed. I get annoyed when people give advice then moan that it wasn’t used. Well, because advice is, again, a suggestion, maybe a possible guideline. Advice should be given in the spirit and understanding the person listening is a sentient human being who is fully capable of making their own decisions that may or may not include your opinion.
I’d like to piggyback on your point #2, Shasta.
Once advice is given and a decision is made, whether the advice is followed oder nicht, a friend is someone who is supportive. If the decision is the right one, a friend helps you celebrate the victory. If the decision is the wrong one, a friend helps you pick up the pieces and move on. Those who do not have your best interest at heart predicate their support on whether you choose “their” path.
Hi Sid
As a fellow New Yorkerette trying to shed a few pounds, I love your blog!!
i found it by absolute chance through NYC Bloggers.
I vent as well, to relieve stress, which is good and bad.
I only skimmed the debate at hand and, it being Sunday eve, must admit it is much to big for me wee brain.
btw I am toying with reviewing blogs by other New Yorkers and would love to start with yours. More later.
cheers!
-k