I’ve been too goddamned busy at work lately to even keep up with that post on gender and violence during my lunchbreak, but I have grabbed snippets of it here and there.
What’s grabbing me right now is how two of our three male respondents profess not only ignorance of the issues, but claim to not know men who would engage in violence, and in Rob’s case, the assertion that women’s perceptions of male-on-female violence are somehow aggravated or inflated by the media.
Why is it I (and nearly every woman I know) has either personally experienced some degree of stalking, abuse, threats, sexual assault or murder and yet so many men claim to not know what the hell we’re talking about? Are we really not talking to them about this, or are they just not listening?
This is a tall order, I know, and there aren’t that many readers hanging out here anymore, but I’d like to do a totally unscientific and informal poll. Actually, it’s less poll than group-fucking-hug, but I think we all could use that, eh?
Via comments, please share the following:
1. Your gender
2. Whether you personally have suffered
a) violent sexual threats and/or gendered threats
b) physical abuse
c) sexual assault
d) stalking
3. Whether you personally know or have known anyone who has been a victim of any of the above or
e) homicide
4. Who knew? Family? Friends? Why or why didn’t you share that information?
I’ll start!
1) female
2) a
A man I did not know took offense to the fact that a friend and I laughed when he yelled “I’m from THE BRONX!” as we walked behind him on a Connecticut street. His response? “What the FUCK are you bitches laughing at? You want to get RAPED?!” Fucking stupid, but still, really guy? You jump straight into the rape threats? Wow. Assbag. I’m fairly fortunate that’s the worst I’ve suffered. Still, I think back to a particular night about 8 years ago that could have ended with c were it not for my friend’s distrust of HIS friends…. I’ve been very fortunate.
3) a, b, c, and d
4) Friends. I never thought to discuss it with family. It just didn’t seem that serious.
So, if you’re willing…let loose! Anonymous comments are of course permitted 
1. female
2. yes — a.
3. yes — a and d.
4. d happened in college to my best friend. we told everyone the typical college handbook says you’re supposed to tell (from the r.a. all the way to the vp of student affairs). we didn’t tell family members, though. and only a few of our friends knew.
but the perpetrator had friends in high places and therefore our accusations didn’t really do much. that’s a completely different rant, though.
1.) Female
2.) a. multiple times, the first when I was 7. (check your e-mail for the story)
3.) a. b. c. and d. (c. happened to two friends of mine - one in grade school and the other college)
4.) I didn’t say anything because I was a child and I was stunned and scared. My friends didn’t tell anyone because they were scared.
this is worth the *delurk*:
1. female
2. a and c
3. yes, no e. Both my best friend and I were molested for an extended period of time by someone well-known to the immediate family.
4. I was about 7 or 8 . I told my parents; I was a witness when mom ‘dealt with’ the young man, and then we moved across town soon thereafter. My best friend was younger, and told her parents. She is now happily married with children, and some intimacy issues. I am celibate–by choice, for now.
Recently, I was placed in the VERY awkward situation of being the object of a lewd comment from the husband of a childhood friend. He leaned in closely to me (we were all seated in a restaurant along with her parents, very close friends of my parents) to utter it. He called me the C-word. I am certain no one else heard, but my friend did spend most of the evening blaming dear hubby’s poor table manners on his meds. I chose to never bring it up–suffice it to say that we no longer are in contact…and they are still together. She very likely already knows to whom she’s married.
1. Female
2. a) yes–a guy, formerly on Yelp, felt the need to 1. post something about me on Craigslist 2. Called me a cunt on that post 3. said he hoped i got run over by a bus and 3. said he hoped my family died of a flesh eating disease…and that’s the most recent one, I can come up with quite a few more from my college days.
b) ex-bf broke my nose when he cracked me across the face in a coked-out rage.
c) no, and i count my blessings every day for that
d) yes-a guy i met in Chicago, when I lived in Iowa, managed to not only find out where I worked, but also my unlisted number, my address and then proceeded to show up at my workplace and sat in the parking lot of my home watching my comings/goings. kinda (very) scary considering he lived in Indiana at the time and we’d only met once and exchanged e-mails and a couple lip locks while out the evening I was in Chicago.
3. yes to a, b, c, d, and e (a friend of a friend in college was murdered by her ex-boyfriend two days after she got engaged to someone else–it was almost two years since she and the ex had broken up)
4. I never have told my family about any of it–but many of my close friends (both male and female) know the details, as do the police of the stalking issue and the broken nose issue.
1. male
2. d
3. a, b, c, d and e. I grew up in a rough neighborhood. I could tell a ton of stories.
4. In some cases, no one knew. In others, everyone knew.
One incident immediately stands out. Someone very very close to me was abducted and raped was she was a toddler. Everyone knows. No one talks about it. It’s one of those secrets so deep and so repressed that you start to wonder if it really happened. The women this happened to is one of the most screwed up people I know. I love her dearly and worry constantly about her.
1. Male
2. (a) Twice. Most recent in high school, while attempting to break up an argument between a friend and a young woman who thought she was in love but wo had been disrespected the whole time.
Her: “Get out the way. You men are all the same. THinking with your dicks.” (paraphrased)
Me: (stupidly) Naw. Y’all need to talk this out, on the real, because..”
Her: *nutshot*
I have lingering physical damage from that. That’s all I’ll say.
3. (a), (b), and (e), albeit attempted. All incidents involving my immediate family and a small circle of family friends we see as family.
4. The acts that occurred down South never got reported, because, well, that’s more prevalent and, sadly, accepted. The attempted (e) occurred twice with the same couple; both times she caught him doing what he wasn’t supposed to do, and tried to kill him. They’re still together.
The other stuff that happened to my mom were drilled into me that it was NEVER cool, and my father was a bitch that thought she would take it. In so many words.
1) Male, 36
2) a,b,d
3)a,b,c,d
I had a job buying life insurance policies as investment vehicles from HIV/AIDS patients from brokers after collage in NY. The brokers were typically gay men. I received constant sexual advances and unwanted attention and gifts. Wrong on so many levels to be told that “broker A met you, said you were really good looking, you should let me suck your dick, I’m really good at it.” I told my girlfriend and boss. They laughed about it. Said I should enjoy the attention I was getting. I identified with women there. It was 1997. On campus this one girl would always proposition me for sex in class, quad, bars, she was relentless. Recently at abirthday party while leaning on ahigh top table a woman slid her hand down and started to squeeze my ass, she said “you like that baby, my husband and I have an open marrage, if you want you can take me home tonight and do whatever you want to me”. Again, unwelcome.
I am painfully aware of the problem of male on female violence and sexual abuse despite the postion I got myself in with the other discussion. I see it and I wish there was amagic bullet to make it stop. My neighbors wife has a black eye from time to time, my block captain reports it to the cops & at CAPS meetings, it doesn’t stop. Another neighbor beats his girlfriend and is on drugs, our block captain tries to do the right thing and has had his car tires slashes and life threatened when he reported it, again nothing happened. One of my college girlfriends didn’t like me to be on top of her, it reminded her of how her brother held her arms down so his friend could fuck her. Another awoke to find one night in the dorm to find some guy in her. Another liked to play out role play rape fantasies because of her childhood experiences and equated in a twisted way the “role play rape scenario” as healthy. There’s more… I’m frustrated that crime statistics like rape are reported in college student handbooks based on convictions alone.
@Rob: I feel like we’ve been hijacking Sid’s blog. I’ve written a ton here in comments and nary a word in my own blog.
You completely reminded me of the unwanted advances from uber-aggressive women. There was a period in my life in the early 90s when it seemed like I was getting propositioned all the time from women who couldn’t take “no” for an answer. I said something about to a few people and the reaction was pretty much that I should be enjoying the come-ons. Even then I knew that if the genders were reversed, the interactions wouldn’t have been deemed so innocent.
There have been women in my life that while I’m saying “no” and pushing them away, they are steady trying to take off my clothes. You can’t hit ‘em and you can’t toss ‘em across the room (they’re women after all), so you just keep saying “no” and pulling your clothes back on and hope they go away. Sometimes they do and sometimes they don’t. And when they don’t, they eventually wear you down and you relent and have sex with them. I don’t know what to qualify that as. You relent, which is the same as giving consent, but you didn’t want to. I guess it’s just a terrible fuck that makes you feel real bad about yourself. Disgusted, even.
Here’s how that has fucked me up. Because I’ve been in that mindstate (having sex when I don’t want to), I’m suspect of every woman I sleep with. For the most part, I don’t believe women want to have sex with me, and when they do, it’s just to get me to go away. Because sometimes consent is easier than no. Honestly, I can’t those thoughts out of my head. I’m going to have to write that down so that I remember to bring it up with my shrink.
Have I crossed the TMI line yet?
Rob and Dragonslayer:
How many of those women (or men in Rob’s case) beat you up? raped you? tried to kill you? because you said no to their advances?
“And when they don’t, they eventually wear you down and you relent and have sex with them”
Really? are you even thinking about what you write here? You don’t have the strength, the willpower, the abilities to say no and stick with it, yet it’s the WOMAN’S fault? Were you tied to the bed? Did she hack your feet off so you couldn’t leave? Did she cut your phone wires so you couldn’t call the police to make her leave (if it was your own home)?
I’m not saying that what they’re doing, the aggression, the lack of listening, etc. is wrong–it’s far, far from wrong. But, it IS in a whole different category than getting raped, beaten or murdered because you say no….
Give.Me.A.Fucking.Break.
@M-Shel: I want you to point out where I made the analogy that my experiences are the equivalent of rape, murder and any other mayhem. I didn’t even blame the woman. I fully admit that it was on me that I didn’t have the willpower to keep saying no.
I was just telling a fucking story.
How about you give me a fucking break and stop reading stuff into my comments that simply aren’t there.
you put forth a comment in a post that is SPECIFICALLY about violence and what? you think a comparison isn’t going to be made?
i’m not even wasting my time or energy going beyond that…
1) female
2) a,b
I can’t even count how many times I’ve had a guy make some off the wall threat because i won’t give him the time of day, called him on his crap, witnessed him doing some dirt, or just looked in his direction.
In college I was dating this guy and we were on the outs. I started seeing someone else and he got angry and punched me in the chest while I was sitting in a chair talking to him. After that, we had several physical altercations. Apparently, he is now married and a deacon. whatever
3)a, b, c, d, e
A and B for are pretty much repeats of my personal experience. C was my freshman year roommate. she liked this guy in a frat and one night he when he was driving her back to the dorm he forced her to give him a blow job. one of our good friends gave him a warning in front of his frat brothers to never go near her again, but he didn’t tell them what happened. after that he would cross the street when he saw her.
D, my friend had to get a restraining order on some guy. A guy a knew had to get an order on a girl that liked him a little too much.
E, one of my friends from college was shot and killed about three months after he graduated.
4) in my case, the new guy was a cop and told me to report it to campus police. I did that and it went o student life, they moved him to another dorm and had him go to anger management sessions. he told me that he knew what to say to get things lessened since he was a psychology major. What a jerk. I should have pressed on him with the township police.
Well, M-Shel, in these guys’ defense, they weren’t equating their experiences to those of the ladies who have been harassed, abused, and treated badly. They were simply saying that those experiences happened to them.
Sid asked for occurrences of threats and abuse, and these guys (and I) gave them as we experienced them. Our stories pale in terms of inhumanity and the lowest level of respect given by the perpetrators with some already shared, but it’s what we’ve gone through, and we’re sharing.
Does being kicked in the nuts equate to the stalking episode my wife recounted earlier? No. But we’re not equating. Sid asked, we responded. Of course, I see my own story is efing roses compared to what the women who’ve shared have gone through, but we’re trying to be part of the discussion, sharing what we have.
If the point was to see, informally, just how many women in the circle of commenters have been personally touched by violence, I think Sid would have asked that more explicitly, and you wouldn’t have read responses by me, DS, or Rob, because we would have STFU.
Rereading, Sid asked for stories of violence and threats. I have erred.
I’ll see my way out now.
No, sid didn’t ask about specific woman against man violence or vice versa…but she did specifically ask about violence–which is what beating, rape, stalking are all about, some to a bigger degree than others, but they are all categorized as threatening and/or violent crimes.
1. Female
2. a, b, c, d
3. I have experienced, and most of the women I know have experienced all of the above. e: Lila, a beautiful woman and a kind of surrogate mother to me when I spent weekends with my dad growing up, was murdered by her husband. Her children and I had witnessed him beat her on previous occasions. I only recently confessed this to my father (it’s now nearly 20 years later) and he asked, “Why didn’t you tell me?” He was shocked and surprised about the domestic violence. My response: “I didn’t tell you much of anything back then because I didn’t know how to talk to you.”
4. Friends, therapists, social workers, but never at the time. Feeling voiceless and not knowing it was necessarily wrong was always the issue.
1. Female
2. b
3. No.
4. Everydamnbody because I was 16, pissed off and I knew it was wrong and I should tell someone what was going on. Nothing was really done because it was a family thing.
It was funny — K. and I were talking about this last night and I got thinking after I logged off from IM. In high school, nearly all of my close female friends were subjected to either sexual or physical abuse, had parents that were addicted to either drugs and/or alcohol and basically had really bad childhoods. The funny thing is that I didn’t realize that it was a lot of girls I knew growing up that had this happen to them and not the boys, until now. I didn’t really think about it.
Violence in a way was part of growing up for me and my friends. I guess that I don’t think about it now because it’s been more than 15 years since it happened and nothing like what other people have detailed has happened to me since.
Comparing my life now and my friends now to what was in the past, I wonder how much of this is not just racial but also socieconomic (sorry about the spelling) and education levels? My town growing up was a lower-middle class and the education level was about high-school graduate.
My life now? Shit, I’m in Madison. Even the grocery clerks here have Ph.D’s. My friends now come from an upper-middle class background with stable families and college education is an expectation, not a “maybe.” Most of their lives are stable.
I dunno. I’m talking out of my ass right now, and just mulling over a bunch of variables. The whole thing’s got me thinking a little, which is exciting.
Wait. Looking back on the questions, I have to amend #3 — I knew a lot of girl friends in high school who were victims of a, b and c. Either from family members, boyfriends of mothers, or something along those lines.
Sorry. Should know not to type with a major sinus headache. Stupid weather.
Wow. Thanks for all the responses, y’all. As I was telling a friend earlier, it’s amazing what we survive.
There’s so much heartbreaking experience here I don’t know where to begin. Beginning!
Mrs. E: Isn’t it odd what we won’t share with family? I never mentioned it because it came to nothing and I have an incredibly protective mother who would likely have had a heart attack if she’d known. I’m pissed–your college authorities didn’t do anything to stop it, though. Not surprised, but pissed. Is your friend okay now, or did it ever escalate to violence?
K: Holy shit. The “multiple times” part is what I’d like people to pay attention to. These aren’t isolated incidents for women. It’s a like a chronic disease–you know that shit’s going to flare up again eventually.
ed: Thanks for joining the conversation. I wonder if a lot of people don’t just turn to that sort of old school justice rather than the authorities.
“She very likely already knows to whom she’s married.”
Truth. And the fact that she stays with him and inflicts him on people she considers her friends probably means you made the right choice cutting that friendship off. :-/ Ugh.
Shel: Hugs. Big ones. You took care of the coke-rage dude, didn’t you? And yeah, this is all scary. Stalking, after one date. How quickly someone can decide to fixate on another…frightening.
T: Ouch. Curious: was she always that aggressive with men, or was that isolated behavior? That was definitely an attack, but you classified it as a threat. Why?
Rob: Interesting stories. I’m confused, though. You’ve experienced threats, abuse and stalking, but I couldn’t tell if your stories reflect that. You definitely seemed to have experienced harrasment. Did you view the harrasing attention from men as threats? That would be a fascinating conversation in and of itself.
Instead of a “magic bullet” to stop violence, how about we keep conversations like these going? That’s your magic bullet. Awareness.
DS: A couple of things. I find it interesting that you have been a victim of d) but chose to share other people’s stories. Well, I get it, actually. But I wondered when it was happening, as now, if your reluctance to report had some underlying “I’m a man, I should be able to handle this myself” current.
To totally flip that sentiment, I find your second story interesting, and yeah, that’s maybe something you should discuss with someone more qualified. Again, you certainly seem to have suffered harrassment, but not violence.I find your wording interesting–you hoped they’d “just go away” and rather than taking yourself out of the situation, you stayed and “caved.” I think this is one of the reasons Michelle had a problem with your story. You seemed to be behaving passively as you claim the women were aggressive, but then engaged them anyway and imply the problem was entirely their aggression. It’s a tough call. On one hand, I don’t want to invalidate what could for you have been a very traumatic experience (or apparently, a series of them); on the other, why was staying and fucking the only alternative to “tossing” them across the room? But yeah, that sounds like one for the pros. Shrinks are great. I miss mine.
You must have had flashbacks when I tried to pants you for shits and giggles that time. My bad!
I think it’s interesting how much detail the men have shared compared to the ladies. And how you both are quite familiar with the patterns, but never viewed them as gendered problems until now.
I do think you should consider starting conversations about this kind of thing in your own blog spaces. I reckon I just don’t have much male readership; I’d love to see these discussions go on in a male venue. Well, “love” may be the wrong word…I’d certainly encourage it, though.
M: It starts so young, doesn’t it? That insecurity, the questioning of ourselves. And the surprise your father expressed! The burdens we place on children…that’s utterly tragic, but she couldn’t help herself; how could he have expected you to know to help her?
BG: Ugh. A deacon now. I’m not surprised. One form of power or another, I guess. as for your guy friend who was stalked, women do seem to do a lot more stalking than actual attacking. A guy I went out with not too long ago said he’d had a stalker for years, who’d managed to find him no matter where he’d moved. She seemed to content herself with harrassing calls, though. Scary.
V: A family thing. A private matter. Sigh. Lots of individuals suffering behind closed doors.
You know what’s funny? When you mentioned the socioeconomic factor, it got me to thinking about that. Is it race/money? But I don’t think it is. I think the fact that we tend to live in our own little enclaves and hide these things from “outsiders” makes it feel that way. I mean, racially, this a diverse group of respondents. I can’t speak to the economic diversity of their backgrounds, but I certainly know plenty of privileged people from my upper-crust school who have been either on the giving or receiving end of verbal and physical abuse, and plenty of girls who’d been molested by their rich family members or raped, abused or stalked by their rich dates and peers.
Who knows? Money can buy good lawyers. And big houses with big yards, and neighbors too far away to hear the screams.
@sid: I guess I never looked at the distinction between male and female victims. Growing up in a poor, violent neighborhood (though I came from a decidedly middle-class family), there was a long period in my life where I didn’t know anyone, male or female who hadn’t been a violence victim. Getting a beat down was simply put a part of life. That probably had a significant effect on how I view violence today.
We’re getting away from the violence angle, but I’ve always been passive. Things sort of happen to me moreso than I cause things to happen. Again, more fodder for the leather couch (I don’t know if it’s just me, but was anyone else disappointed when they first saw a shrink and there was no luxurious leather couch).
BTW, being pants by women you like is not so bad.
Sid, I know that violence, statistically, is more prevalently known about on the lower end of the socio-economic scale, but I don’t know if it’s actually more prevalent overall.
Speaking from experience…I grew up in a very violent family—someone was pretty much always pummeling someone in my house when i was quite young–my mom and dad, my dad and my brother, my brother on my sisters/I. But, up until a few years ago, not one single friend of mine that I’ve known since childhood had any idea such a thing was going on in my family–absolutely.no.idea.
And I’d be willing to bet that you and Shas-who’ve met my mom-wouldn’t have ever contemplated it either upon meeting her.
I grew up in a small town with parents who grew up in an era where you DID NOT air your dirty laundry to the public. You didn’t call the police, you didn’t tell your family, and you damn well didn’t talk to a shrink.
I count my blessings that I managed to get over those things and am completely willing to do any of those things if it means that myself and others could have a better life because of it.
As for the dude who broke my nose–I didn’t press charges and his mom said to me, upon returning to their house from the ER, “what did you do to make him hit you”. Think she might have been a victim of abuse? Yeah, I certainly do…oh, and a few guy friends iterated similar sentiments upon my return back to school in Macomb. Think they might’ve been abusing their girlfriends? Again, I do…
In hindsight, I wish I would’ve pressed charges, but I was hours away from home, staying with his family, scared, and foolishly young and insecure–standing alone in the face of such things was not something I probably could’ve handled at that time in my life because in my eyes it would’ve meant losing not only the boyfriend (who i dumped days later anyway), but all of our mutual friends and pretty much life as I knew it. Sad huh? I felt shame for it back then for one reason and I feel a modicum of shame now because I didn’t do anything about it, though I try to tell myself that’s not logical reasoning.
“T: Ouch. Curious: was she always that aggressive with men, or was that isolated behavior? That was definitely an attack, but you classified it as a threat. Why?”
She had a history of becoming unglued at the slightest provocation. Teachers were afraid she’d snap on them, girls and boys would avoid having to say anything to her. The couple dudes who tried to step to her were usually vocally assaulted, then, well, kicked in the nuts. She always thought that people were talking about her, and dissing her, and she lashed out constantly. With guys, she just happened to employ a tactic which is pretty sexualized assault.
I classfied it as a threat because that’s what she was; a threat. It’s one thing to lash out, yet anohter to consistently lash out at men via a method that we’re sensitized to avoid at any cost. At any point she or anyone else angry enough could launch an attack that can cause lasting physical damage.
1. female
2. no; well, there was that time a drunk guy busted in on me in the bathroom; he was throwing his body against the door to break it down and when he burst through, i threw a wood hairbrush really hard and knocked him on his ass. he threatened me with a knife and i stepped on him. hard.
3. yes; my aunt (b, c, a); my mother (probably b); my father (a); nearly most of my current social circle (c)
4. with the family stuff, family definitely knew about the physical and sexual abuse but they’ve only now just started talking about it and, man, does it explain a LOT about our family dynamic; as for my friends, i think only friends knew. as far as i know, no one reported the assaults to the authorities (hear that, people who don’t understand why sexual assault is one of the most underreported crimes on the books?) for a variety of reasons: there was alcohol involved, they didn’t think they’d be believed, they didn’t want to go through the hassle of examination/pressing charges (they’d be treated like shit anyway), who the perpetrator was (i.e., a drunk-ass federal law enforcement officer), etc.
(FYI, this could possibly be a triggering post, Sid. just a word of caution.)
Troyal–she sounds like an abusive nut job. I hope you’re not suffering lasting effects. I have known some women (known after the fact) who hit guys because they figured the guy couldn’t fight back. It’s wrong. Period. And I told them so. And I told them I couldn’t sympathize when the guys hit back and asked how they liked it.
Lord.
Ding: holy hell. On all counts. I’m glad you stomped the bathroom asshole. I’ve never understood how people could not get why sexual crimes go unreported. I once had a J-school prof pose this question to the class: Why should rape victims not have their names reported in news stories? Isn’t rape a crime like any other? (M, correct me if I my understanding of that question is skewed.) The answer to me seems obvious: because unlike a murder victim, a robbery victim, an arson victim, people don’t assume that the criminal was in some way provoked, they don’t look at those victims as “damaged goods.” Well, unless you’re talking about insurance claims adjusters they don’t.
And I had to actually go searching for what a “triggering post” was. I hadn’t really considered that. Not sure I’d know what to do if it turned into such for a reader, or if I’d know, anyway. That’s just a level of responsibility I didn’t think about. Now that it’s out there…I’m at a loss.
1. Female
2. a, d, This guy came up to me while I was sitting at an outdoor table and started making extremely lewd comments, which then progressed to threats of rape. Eventually, the shop owner chased him away. I thought I’d never see him again, but I frequented that area of town, and he would be there often and harass me while I was there.
3. a, b, c, d
4. Both friends and family knew, but I only told my family when I was about to move away from that town. There was nothing they could do about it, so I didn’t want to worry them while the problem still existed.